Talk:Eurogame

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Requestes move This article was nominated for renaming on 29th June 2006.
The result of the discussion was no consensus.

List[edit]

It seems to me that, without a definition of what a german-style game is to test against, the list of games section is original research, which is forbidden by WP:NOR. As a result, we should remove it. Percy Snoodle 10:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Rather than deleting this list, which in my mind is vital to help others fully understand what a german-style board game is, why not simply break it out into a page of it's own where all German-style games are listed be they old, new, in print, or out of print. I want to add the game War On Terror by TerrorBull games but at this stage have no criteria to go by to determine if it is deemed notable enough to include yet 81.144.157.50 12:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC) Trollgod 12:19, 05 January 2007 (GMT)
I have a very stupid question: according to the definition, Monopoly would qualify as a (precursor) of German Style board games (although, of course, it's American, but that's not the point). Have I misunderstood something? --Hartmut Haberland 08:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I see your point about Monopoly, but we have to have some sensitivity to history: German-style games are not absolutely unique--Mancala would be an even better example--but they represent a design movement starting in the late 20th century. Also, Monopoly fails the criterion of having a definely time-end to the game, something German Style games have almost universally.
Monopoly would not qualify on several grounds. Monopoly has larger numbers than most Eurogames (German-style games) and it does not have a "count down" mechanism--Monopoly games take an indefinite and sometimes long time if players become closely matched. Monopoly has player elimination. The primary mechanism of Monopoly is roll-and-move, a very trite, old mechanic.

Removable of BGG[edit]

I'm curious why BoardGameGeek was removed from the see also (especially given that BrettSpielWelt was not). Rdore 04:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I added a link to BGG under the external links section. I can't imagine why it shouldn't be there. Bgplayer 23:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Probably because BGG had already been linked to in the article, but BSW hadn't. --McGeddon 23:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, here is the explanation given by the anonymous user: "removed inappropriate see also only included to spam the boards." Probably the same guy who wanted to delete BGG from Wikipedia a few weeks ago. --Jcbutler 02:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Currently BGG is in the "See also" section, but it has been removed again from the "External links" section. We really need to discuss this and come up with a consensus, rather than continually adding and removing it. --Jcbutler 18:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

My feeling is that since it has an external link on its own page, it shouldn't appear in the external links on this page. However, if there's a page on the BGG wiki specifically about designer games, rather than the wole of BGG's rather broad remit, then that page would be a suitable target for an external link. Percy Snoodle 19:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if it was in the "See also" section before or not but I'm fine with it being there and not in "External links". It probably makes more sense even since it has its own page. Bgplayer 22:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The playing with BGG links may relate to politics on BGG, a small but vehement (and not particularly polite or scrupulous) faction believing that BGG is far too Eurogame-oriented. In my opinion, this is the result of the greater number of Eurogames being published compared to non-German-style US games (wargames excluded on either side). This brouhaha seems to be dying out. It seems most useful to directly reference BGG; requiring access to the the Wikipedia article on BGG to then get to the reference to BGG is annoying to a user who would just like to get to BGG.

No, it's not got anything to do with bgg politics. Percy Snoodle 19:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Italics[edit]

This article seems very inconsistent about whether and when the name of a game gets italicised. Are there rules about this that I'm not aware of?

According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (text formatting), italics are used for the titles of books, films, video games, computer games, musical albums, and works of art. Board games are not specifically mentioned, but I would argue that we should use the same rule that applies to computer and video games, and italicize all of them for the sake of consistency. The exception might be noncommercial games like chess and go, which are generally not italicized, or capitalized for that matter. --Jcbutler 17:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Influence on MTG is inaccurate[edit]

I believe this article is inaccurate in describing Eurogaming as an influence on Garfield's Magic TCG. The only time Garfield has mentioned a board game influencing his card game is in the instance of Cosmic Encounter, which could hardly be considered a German-style game.ELPsteel 07:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I say go ahead and delete it. That's been in the article for ever, never sourced, I'm not sure where it came from. Rdore 19:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

To note here, as I have in asnwer to Rdore's question on my talk page, two paragraphs were removed - one about M:TG, which was false, as ELPSteel notes; and one about games like Bohnanza, which was true. I assumed the second paragraph had been removed in error and have returned it. Percy Snoodle 18:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Claiming that Eurogaming (post-1995) influenced MTFG (1993) is inaccurate: the timing was wrong. If anything it went the other way around - MTG's exception-driven design (simple basic rules with exceptions spelled out on the components) heavily influenced early Euros over the next decade. Eric S. Raymond (talk) 14:12, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Change of name?[edit]

I'm interested in getting some opinion. On BGG, "Euro" is the much more common term over "German" these days. Doing some quick google searches suggests that that's true across the board. Searching for German-style board game gets 61,600 hits[1], for Euro-style board game gets 77,200 hits[2], and European-style board game gets 208,000[3]. Given that, I'm proposing moving this to European-style board game and then redirecting this to there, and also redirecting Euro-style board game to there. I know I could be bold but I'd like to see what others think first. — Timotab Timothy (not Tim dagnabbit!) 23:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

This has been extensively discussed earlier. — Aldaron • T/C 03:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Two years ago, the consensus seemed to be that German was the more common term. A little over one year ago, Euro started to gain prominence. Today, Euro(pean) has the clear win. Shouldn't we reflect current terminology? — Timotab Timothy (not Tim dagnabbit!) 03:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, I'd like to recommend that you use the requested moves process if you do decide to move the page. I'd also advise dropping the "-style" if you want to reflect current use; your google searches don't really apply because hardly anyone ever says "style". without "style", the searches give 15,000,000 for "German"[4] and only 2,800,000 for "Euro"[5], but the clear winner is "Designer" with 94,200,000[6]. However, your searches didn't use quotes, which give us 13,600[7] / 2,520[8] / 1,970[9] - so with quotes, "German" still takes it. Dropping "board", since the article deals with all the designer game types, gives us 120,000[10] / 391,000[11] / 21,500[12] - showing you can make google support whichever one you want just by varying the search. What would be useful would be a breakdown of use of each term on BGG by year. Percy Snoodle 07:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

So - are we going to have another RM? It's been more than a year since the last one, and I'm not keen to be the one to start this off as I started the last one and it got messy; but at least we can get rid of "board". Percy Snoodle 14:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The source mentioned (Bob Schwartz) claims that German Style doesn't work from a retailers perspective, because of negative connotations. The source goes even that far and claims that they look for a new name, not that a new name is already in use. It's like posting somewhere "I want to call those games XYZ Games now" and then claim that as a source. And that got such a prominent place in the article? All designers names in that list are german and "german" very much dominates that article. I cannot see that issue as some naive attempt to find a better name. In fact, the source claims economical reasons and in that case just have to do with peoples bias. So we have Disneys Tales instead of Grimms Fairytales and norse / scandinavian religion as source in Fantasy instead of germanic religion and the german influence on Comics is probably also unwanted as it doesn't help to keep the germans as humourless Nazis they have become since the world wars. Now, I'll eat some American Pizza and go buy a truly american Levi Jeans. — best wishes from germany —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.58.136.255 (talk) 08:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

'Euro' is by far the more common way they are referred to in the community nowadays. I was pretty surprised to see people still clinging to 'German' since it is pretty uncommon to hear them referred to that way these days and sounds so out of touch. 156.142.34.20 (talk) 13:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

As noted above, this has been extensively discussed earlier. That discussion should be reviewed before reopening this issue. The basic outcome was that (a) the (then) proposed term "Designer game" would be a bad choice (it's just a marketing term that no one actually uses), but that (b) people were divided as to whether "German" and "Euro" was more appropriate, with inertia favoring retaining "German". My view is that "Euro" is more accurate, and increasingly widely used, and I would support a change to either "Euro game" or "Eurogame". — Aldaron • T/C 16:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
While they may have originated in Germany, games of this style are by no means limited to Germany nowadays. As such, Eurogames is vastly more accurate and preferable. Come to think of it, I can't imagine them being limited to Europe either, which is why I propose renaming to "World games" or, even better, "Games". While we're at it, let's also rename the article on the Austrian School of Economics to something more accurate as I know for a fact lots of Austrians don't even follow that school of thought and non-Austrian publications abound. I also heard German Shepherd Dogs have been spotted in China and German Township is mostly populated by Americans. It seems there's a lot to be done; let's get on it. 84.63.175.93 (talk) 15:40, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
It is not Wikipedia's place to try to evangelize a new name, so World games is right out. (Designer games is used a bit, but doesn't seem to have much traction.) It may be time for a rename to eurogame:
"German game" -sport About 122,000 results (0.36 seconds)
"eurogame" -sport About 242,000 results (0.29 seconds)
"German-style game" -sport About 47,800 results (0.42 seconds)
The -sport is to avoid conflating with the Eurogames sporting event mentioned below. While this may kill references to sport themed eurogames (I can only think of Winner's Circle), it should affect the three candidates equally (in percentage terms). Laguna CA (talk) 23:20, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Just stumbled over this topic and read through google hits, including this Wiki page. They generally mention 'German'; claiming that games from this area are particularily influental, that the game shows in Essen and Nuremburg are the most important and that the games awards "Spiel des Jahres" and "Deutscher Spieler Preis" are kind of "Oscar" of this industry. Sometimes Rio Grande Games is mentioned, which provides such games for the international market. Rio Grande Games themselves note on their website, that most of their games are german games. The term Eurogames several times links to a "the biggest athletic event for lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgender people in Europe" ... --194.120.140.122 (talk) 12:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Apologies[edit]

I just made a couple changes to the redirect link ... which was in fact totally correct to begin with. I hope I've put it all back to normal again. I'm clearly too sleep deprived to be editing Wikipedia right now. Sorry for the momentary mishap. 132.162.208.51 (talk) 22:18, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

30 minutes[edit]

I seem to "avoid" those short games somehow. Could someone point me to a few examples that typically are finished in 30 minutes? --Echosmoke (talk) 02:26, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Dominion, Coloretto, For Sale, TransAmerica/TransEuropa/Vexation... Those are just a few that come immediately to mind. BoardGameGeek would be a better place to ask this question. Laguna CA (talk) 08:09, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Meoplesmagazine[edit]

http://www.meoplesmagazine.com/ its probably a good source for german board game reviews - its in english but the guys are germans. not the largest database yet, but an active site about very new and sometimes very old and almost forgotten gems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.90.253.189 (talk) 21:50, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

usually multi-player?[edit]

Quoting article: "As far as generalities can be made about such a large and diverse group of games, German-style games are usually multiplayer and ....."

"Usually multi-player" suggests to me that some are single-player games, i.e., solitaire games. Are some of them designed as single-player games or is it merely that they can be adapted to be played by one person?. Thanks. Wanderer57 (talk) 14:21, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

It's an ambiguous term. In the world of video games, multiplayer means 2 or more players. In the world of board games, however, multiplayer means 3 or more.  Randall Bart   Talk  20:09, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Confirming Randall Bart's observation; in Euro-player slang multiplayer does mean 3 or more. Eric S. Raymond (talk) 14:51, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 23 December 2013[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 23:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

German-style board game → Eurogame – I've been researching some topics surrounding this subject, and I've noticed that the term most frequently used to refer to this class of game in reliable sources appears to be Eurogame. Accordingly, I propose moving this article per WP:COMMONNAME. --Relisted.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:35, 2 January 2014 (UTC) Muchness (talk) 04:06, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Strong oppose "Eurogame" should redirect to the disambiguation page Eurogames or directly to EuroGames -- 65.94.78.9 (talk) 05:19, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Weak support. Labelling this type of board games as "German-style" contrasts with the article's claim that not all German-style board games are German. Singling out Germany from the whole Europe looks rather silly too. Also, the German version of this article is called de:Autorenspiel ("authored board game"), not "Brettspiel in dem Deutschen Stil". JIP | Talk 19:17, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose; I don't see anything showing that these are not commonly referred to as German-style, which is how I personally have always heard them referred to as. And obviously "German-style" doesn't mean it's from there, it just means it's in the style of that place. So, indeed, play some Settlers and enjoy your Merry Christmas. smile Red Slash 23:51, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sid Sackson as example of a German-style designer?[edit]

Personally I am not entirely convinced that Sid Sackson is a good example of German-style boardgames designer. Games like Can't stop or Bazaar, don't have the same intense themes like other eurogames. At the same time, I have to admit that probably he was one of the first American designers to design more German-style games :-) Because it is confusing to put him in what should be a clear list of examples, I would propose to delete him from the list. What do you think about this? Facharbeit (talk) 12:12, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I concur. I think Sackson can be correctly regarded as a precursor of or influence on the Eurogame, but not himself part of the genre. His games do not use the same alphabet of tropes. Eric S. Raymond (talk) 19:42, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Hm. I'm tripping over references to German game designers citing Sackson's "Acquire" as a major influence on the German school that became Euros. So it may be that Sackson was the genetic ancestor of Euros. The timing would fit. I'm going to try and hunt up a primary source Eric S. Raymond (talk) 14:58, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Found it. The evidence is totted up in Stewart Wood's book "Eurogames". I'm going to edit the entry now. Eric S. Raymond (talk) 15:02, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Name, revisited[edit]

Here are Google Books count for certain possible names:

  • "x-style game" or just "x game" is too generic to compare easily in this context
  • "German-style board game" 154
  • "European-style board game" 5
  • "European board game" 100
  • "German board game" 280
  • "eurogame" 850, and when controlled for board (board+eurogame), still 830

The one book that seems to be the dedicated treatment of this type of games is >Stewart Woods (16 August 2012). Eurogames: The Design, Culture and Play of Modern European Board Games. McFarland. ISBN 978-0-7864-9065-3.. Given the above, I think it is worth revisiting the prior naming discussion and move this to Eurogame. I do acknowledge the existence of other topics at Eurogames disambig, but the publisher is a tiny company, and the sporting events generates fewer hits on Google books: "lgbt eurogame" (280). Sports gives a 1000, but well, this is why we have disambigs. Anyway, as the singuler eurogame term redirects here anyway, I think we should make it the main for this topic. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:24, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 19 July 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Clear consensus that the proposed title is the common name. On the question of whether disambiguation is required, I find there is no consensus, so we default to the status quo, which seeing as "Eurogame" has redirected here uncontroversially since its creation in 2006, is the un-disambiguated form. The moves proceeds as proposed, though there should be no prejudice against a future RM discussing whether or not to add disambiguation. Jenks24 (talk) 13:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)


German-style board game → Eurogame – Per reasons I presented in the section above (which attracted no comments), I propose to move this to Eurogame (currently a redirect here). It is the most popular name. No hyphen per the cited one and only book on the subject. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:14, 19 July 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 18:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

  • Please provide statistics showing that this is the more popular use of the term. My google search shows three hits about the LGBT event, three about board games, and four about unrelated businesses. I think it's enough to have a dab note at the top of an article ("this article is about board games; for an article about an LGBT sporting event see Eurogames). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:09, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Your own results show this is not the primary topic. Therefore the disambiguation page should be the primary landing spot. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:47, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Support, Eurogame has always seemed the more popular version to me (with it understood that most Eurogames are German). SnowFire (talk) 19:07, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose, keep the name as it is the name most often used. "Eurogames" should be redirected to the disambiguation page while "European board game" perhaps could be redirected here. Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 11:00, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support, Eurogame has been the more prominent term since I started playing around 2002 and is definitely prevalent today, at least in the U.S. and the rest of the Anglosphere. Most English-speaking gamers would recognize the term "German-style" but not generate it. The fact that "Eurogames" has other meanings is not dispositive - it's what people *use*. Also note the contrast with the widely-used term "Ameritrash", which I just added to the article - entertainingly, everyone I've heard put down a game that way is American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric S. Raymond (talk • contribs) 19:50, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comparison to Chess and Go may be dated[edit]

I think the article's claim that Eurogames are less complex than "classic strategy games" has become dated and questionable. This was true a decade ago, but one consequence of the growth of the hobby is to stimulate demand for designs which would have been too crunchy to sell well in the early 2000s. I added a 'graph to the article noting this in connection with Terra Mystica and Tzolkin. As a player of classic strategy games and wargames myself, I think the high end of the hobby has reached near parity with those; however, I have not made the assertion myself and think it needs discussion before it's done. Eric S. Raymond (talk) 20:08, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

You may be right. I have [13] on my shelf, but may take me a while to get to it, read it, and update the article based on it. Should be a good source for making this a GA; would be great if someone else would pick up a copy and work with me to bring this article to a higher quality :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:41, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Family Games[edit]

Since I'm German, I did not know, that this type of games is considered "German" or "Euro". In Germany it's just called a "family game". This expression contains nearly the whole explanation of the topic. A game that is suitable for a family should guarantee one hour of family harmony. It should be interesting for kids & adults: not too complicated, not consume too much time. Communication should be encouraged, a young child should be able to win against an adult. It should be played "together" and not against each other. It should be fun for the whole family, including the one who looses the game. In Germany often one player helps other players, especially the kids. For a parent it is sometimes more fun to see the child win. Sometimes a child still has to learn, that even loosing a game can be fun. Then the mother will play in a way that she wins herself, and cheer the loosing child, to make it a "good looser" in future. When the kids are older it is more fun if everybody tries to win. It's no fun at all to win by cheating, because you and the others will feel it. Nobody likes to play with a cheat. A nice winner is happy and does not try very hard to win the next game. In a family you usually prefer harmony to competition, thus "family game" is a very precise term. Scotland Yard, Siedler of Catan, Adel verpflichted or Carcassonne are good examples for such games. Is the expression "familiy game" used for this type of games in English speaking countries? Regards Minoo (talk) 00:24, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm way late responding to this, but I'll note that 'family game' has a different meaning in the United States - it would usually mean a lighter, mass market game like Monopoly rather than a true strategy game, although this definition is pretty loose. Nwlaw63 (talk) 02:47, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Added Events Sub-section[edit]

I've added an events sub-section and put in a brief mention of Essen Spiel. Help in fleshing this out would of course be welcome. Nwlaw63 (talk) 19:19, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Tweaking History Section[edit]

I have supplemented the history section with a brief mention of how non-confrontational games took off in Germany at a time when conflict was not celebrated - this bit of history seems essential to understanding both the history of eurogames and how they came to occupy a distinctly different niche from conflict style games. I've sourced this to the Stuart Woods book on eurogames, which as the largest and richest source on eurogames as a whole, should be used more in this article and articles on other eurogames. Nwlaw63 (talk) 19:34, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Cleaning the Article Up[edit]

While there's a lot of good information in the article, it's a bit of a mess. There's a number of areas I hope to address in the coming months, and I invite others to jump in as well. Here are just a few of the issues:

1) Sourcing. There's a ton of unsourced opinion in the article. Reliable sourcing needs to be found, or stuff needs to be cut. Woods' Eurogames is a great book, but we can't use it to source everything. And some of the existing sources are either not reliable or aren't formatted properly.

2) Awards. The section's out of date - the Kennerspiel/Kinderspiel aren't mentioned.

3) Arbitrary information. Random facts/trivia are given all over the place. They need to either be put into context, filled out, or removed. (Example: randomly mentioning several eurogames which have iPhone apps). Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:31, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm finally going to move forward and take action here, as it appears I am one of the only interested editors. I will removing a lot of unsourced trivia going forward here. If anyone objects to a particular cut, I ask that they come back with reliable sourcing for any material they wish to keep. Nwlaw63 (talk) 18:53, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

In my ongoing efforts to clean up this article, I'm completely removing the 'Definitions' subhead, which isn't supported by reliable sources and appears out of date in its definitions. Nwlaw63 (talk) 18:40, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

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Low Emphasis on Theme Section[edit]

I'm not sure this section belongs in the article - the accuracy of what's being claimed here is dubious (some eurogames have lots of theme, some don't), and most importantly, the contention doesn't appear to be supported by reliable sources I can find. If anyone has such sources, please note them here or add them to the article - otherwise, I'll be looking at cutting this section. Nwlaw63 (talk) 15:32, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

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