Talk:Minorities in Greece

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Archive 1 (2006—2007)
Archive 2 (2008)

Wikipedia should promote freedom in access to information[edit]

I would like to protest to many persons here who use Wikipedia to show personal views or Greek government policies about the minorities in Greece, which in fact have been strongly criticized by the European Court of Human Rights, the United Nations Human Rights Council and the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights as can be seen in the references in the article. In order to encourage freedom of information access Wikipedia should allow free exposure to all kind of referenced material, and in particular materials denied with official government policies. After all, the reports presented by official institutions (previously mentioned) protecting minorities and human rights in general are much more valuable than any other personal publications, books and even mainstream, biased, popular sources such as Britannica. It is outrageous to delete (or undo) an edit citing text from a report of the United Nations Human Rights Council published just recently in 2008.

Causantin made a good point by saying: "Why is it that, of all the countries in Europe, only 2 have "minorities" pages (Greece and Poland)? What is even crazier, is that these 2 are the only ones with no sizable minorities to speak of!! Both Poland and Greece have less than 2% minority populations, while in most European countries the percentage is above 5%, and often much more." Indeed, it's a sign that there is something very wrong with minority official policies and public opinion in Greece. If everything was fine there would have probably only been a short list of minorities in Greece with exact count as obtained in an official census. Until then, we should all to try to help truth surface. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ДАБ (talk • contribs) 19:58, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Irrational emphasis - greatly shorten?[edit]

Why is it that, of all the countries in Europe, only 2 have "minorities" pages (Greece and Poland)? What is even crazier, is that these 2 are the only ones with no sizable minorities to speak of!! Both Poland and Greece have less than 2% minority populations, while in most European countries the percentage is above 5%, and often much more. Until the other pages are filled up comparably, I would propose greatly trimming the article to include only real minorities (i.e. minorities whose people accept the minority identity). Causantin (talk) 11:56, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Please take a look at Category:Ethnic groups in Europe by country, which points to category pages for ethnic groups in all European counties (who knew there were Portuguese Luxembourgers? You will find that ethnic groups/minorities in Europe are actually quite well covered. Anyway, even if it were true that this article was more complete than the corresponding articles on other countries, that would not be a reason to "trim" this one, but to improve the others.

A better name for this article would probably be 'Ethnic groups in Greece', but in articles about Greece, it is probably better to avoid the word 'ethnic', since 'national' and 'ethnic' are the same word (εθνικὀς) in Greek. --macrakis (talk) 18:06, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

4milion arvanites origin 2milion speaks albanian 1milion slaves origin 300000speaks macedonian 100000 turk 1milion vlach origin 200000speaks vlaks 20000speaks albanian chams or 1milion greeks autocton 3milion from anadoll 6milion asimilated greeks and minorities when 3milion didnt speak greek from 300000 in epirus only 50000are pure greeks and 200000didnt speak greek from 2milion in macedonia 300000are pure greeks 1milion from anadoll 3ooooo are asimilated and 400000 are albanians vlach and slavs in central greece from 4milion 2milion are arvanites and 1milion speak today arvanites in thrace 300000people where 150000 muslim, 50000arvanites, 500000bulgares and 50000greeks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shqiptari77 (talk • contribs) 17:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Discrimination of turks[edit]

"Turks in Greece suffer from discrimination according to Human Rights Watch. On on 29 January 1990 Komotini events Turks become the target of Greek nationalists." I cant see any pov it verified and some people remove sentence even without looking/checking references.--Abbatai (talk) 08:29, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Wrong Albanian numbers- READ THE SOURCE[edit]

The source says the number of Albanian immigrants in Greece is 459,390. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bronxguy (talk • contribs) 19:41, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Lunch for Two (talk) 13:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Changes to "Macedonian speaking" and "Pomak" sections.[edit]

Users who disagree with the edits made to the former "Slavic-speakers" section, please present your reasons for this belief. All of the changes were well sourced and reflect both POV's (namely people who identify as ethnic Macedonians and people who identify as Greeks Slavophone Greeks). It reflects that although there are people who identify as Greeks, there are others however who identify as Macedonians and the references show the steps which these people have taken to nurture their mother language.

Similarly, the edits to the Pomak section simply reflect the linguistic classification of this speech, and provide information regarding the steps that these people have taken to foster their own culture. Lunch for Two (talk) 06:04, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Look, you need valid neutral reliable sources. Youtube is not among them. Neither is 'http://www.australianmacedonianweekly.com'. Moreover, you have changed the heading Slavic-speaking to Macedonian-speaking which is plain wrong since the section itself is about other groups as well (apart from the alleged Macedonian-speakers). Not to mention most additions are extremely POVish and sources are used selectively. I asked you to discuss the issues before adding the info that could spark an edit-war. Thanks for the cooperation, really. --Laveol ^T 06:20, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the first part of your comment. (The Youtube source was only used for the Pomak news segment, I dont enough of the Greek script to be able to do full searches for the information, I am hopeful that this can be assisted by some of the Greek speaking users here).

It is clear that the language is Macedonian (this has been established time and time again by linguists, and by self identification of many of the speakers). In recent years the movement to promote the use of this language has been gaining momentum (in Greece), and this should be reflected in the text of the article. Literature (ie books, etc.) will need time (as always), to catch up with recent developments, and at this stage newspaper articles merely describing facts are suitable for sources. It is a fact that Macedonian language newspapers, radio stations, courses for learning the language, Macedonian-speaking mayors, etc. exist. How do you suggest that, apart from newspaper articles, that this information is sourced.

I detached the Pomak minority, given that they are a completely different group and share very little in common with the Macedonian speakers in Florina, Kastoria, etc.Lunch for Two (talk) 06:36, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Third Party here. Lunch for Two asked me to chime in. I'm not sure that I've changed half a dozen Balkan related pages out of my 12,000 edits. :) First of all, the amount of text added and reverted is *very* large and covers a wide variety of topics. Preferably, they should be added back in from least to most controversial with time to consider.

The section with "further Albanian" is not referenced at all, and "interestingly" IMO, never belongs in wikipedia outside a quote
The section with "Megleno-Romanian speakers" appears to reflect what is in that article, but adding a reference from that article with what is this article would be useful.
The Pomaks, I don't think the title needs to be changed, "however there have been reports" isn't appropriate and the youtube video doesn't indicate that it has been broadcast. The census piece, OTOH, is probably appropriate.
For the remainder Macedonia/Slavic speaking, given that the article referenced as Main is "Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia", I think the title prior to Lunch for Two's changes shold stay. My concern is less for the references, which for the ones with the mk seem to simply indicate they exist and more for balance among the various paragraphs. A large amount of what is added appears to already been in Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia, so what is actually in this article should probably be no longer than the text for the Roma or the Turks.
I think that an additional level of title may be appropriate: Have the Slavic speakers as a title at one level with perhaps an intro paragraph and have the Macedonians and Pomaks as titles at the next level down.Naraht (talk) 15:34, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Fair comments being made. I think another subheading at the same level at the Pomak subheading called "Ethnic Macedonians" is a suitable compromise. Here the information about the ethnic Macedonian minority can be added (which in itself is quite extensive), whilst still retaining information about the speakers who choose to identify as Greeks (which was contained in my original edit)

As for the other sections, I will invest more time in better wording/references. Lunch for Two (talk) 12:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

After having a look at the page again, maybe it is more appropriate if "Ethnic Macedonians in Greece" is placed under the heading 'Other minorities', given that they are an ethnic minority (comparable to the turks, armenians and jews) and not merely a cultural-linguistic one (which implies Greek national consciousness). Any comments making such an edit? Lunch for Two (talk) 15:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

No, because most Slavic-speakers in Greek Macedonia identify as Greek. Only a small minority identify as "ethnic Macedonian" (as evidenced by the poor performance of "Rainbow"). Athenean (talk) 15:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

That is your opinion. Here are some facts:

There exist people in Greece who identify as ethnic Macedonians
These people are represented by several organisations
These people have suceeded in electing ethnic Macedonians to public office
There exist several Macedonian newspapers in Greece
There are Macedonian language radio programs in Greece
There have been calls for the introduction of the Macedonian language in schools
Several Macedonian language courses in several cities have been set up. (All of these above facts were substantiated by links on the version which I edited)

Now Athenean, where do you propose that this minority receives coverage on this page? (All of this evidence strongly reaffirms that as a group, they exist) Lunch for Two (talk) 15:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Most of this people, probably 95% have a Greek selfidentification and speak different Slavic dialects. Please, keep neutraliry. Jingby (talk) 16:49, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, this is an unsubstantiated and clearly biased POV statement, and secondly, it does not nothing to counter the information which has been presented that clearly shows there is a significant population identifying as Macedonians (ethnically).

Is it not neutral to present the fact these people exist? And that they have manifested ways of expressing their identity (newspapers, radio, schools, organisations, etc.). Let the reader make up their own mind, judging from what these people have done themselves, as to whether or not they exist.

In spite of all of the information presented from intellectuals, and all of the evidence of self-identification by native Macedonian, is there anyone who can present a reason why this minority should not be listed on this page? (The fact that some speakers may have a different ethnic consciousness, is not a restricting reason) Lunch for Two (talk) 09:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Secondly, provide your reliable, nonbiased, scientific sources, not your POV. Thank you. Jingby (talk) 09:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:NEWSORG; "Mainstream news reporting is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact". My edit contained only facts which reflected real-life occurances in Northern Greece. Understandably, the limited interest which the English-language media has in regards to minority groups in Greece, is reflected in the lack of many recent English language articles also reflecting the occurances. The occurances may have been picked up in the Greek press, I personally do not know enough Greek to see if this is the case. The Macedonian language newspaper articles, for these purposes are acceptable as sources as per WP:NEWSORG.

Stop reverting edits due to personal POV, and rather assess the actual facts to see if they can be substantiated or not. Which of the instances of Macedonian self-identification did not occur?. Lunch for Two (talk) 10:21, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I have divided the section now information can be put about those identifying as Greeks and those who do not. Both POV's are covered. Lunch for Two (talk) 12:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The name of this article is Minorities in Greece. Please, create a different article about this 10,000 people and do not manipulate this one, which was neutral before your mass-edits. Thank you. Jingby (talk) 13:18, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Since when does size have anything to do with it? Why will you not accept the edits? Do these people not exist?! Lunch for Two (talk) 13:29, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Because nobody cares about newspapers from the WWII. Jingby (talk) 13:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

No, but people might be interested in the 6 Macedonian newspapers published in the last 20 years. Or the radio programs. Or the language classes. Or just self-identification in general.Lunch for Two (talk) 14:36, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, because of that you have created a new article. Congratulations. Jingby (talk) 14:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

They might also be interested in the fact that "Rainbow" hasn't run for elections since 2007, but you're probably not too crazy about mentioning that, are you? Athenean (talk) 14:44, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I dont mind having that in the article, so long as the other information regarding their self identification (elected representatives, radio, newspapers, etc.) are also mentioned. Lunch for Two (talk) 02:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

POV-pushing[edit]

I have reverted these edits [1] as POV-pushing. First, the very use of language such as "among the problems of the muslim minority" and "another problem" are editorializing in nature, partisan, and unencyclopedic. Second, this so-called "Greek state's discimination" [2] is from a source that's over 20 years old, and the situation has changed considerably since then. Third, mention of every single cemetery desecration is well beyond the scope of the article. This article is intended to provide readers with an overview of the minorities in Greece, not a litany of abuse and complaints. The section on Turks should be no longer or that different from the others. Lastly, the Turks of Western Thrace are listed in the Religious Minorities section together with the Pomaks because that is how they are treated in the Treaty of Lausanne, and therefore the Greek state, and most importantly the literature. I am well aware of the Gökalpian pan-Turkist POV, but it has no place in the article. Athenean (talk) 02:02, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Athanean;

1) If writing "among the problems" is "editorializing" you could have rephrased it instead of deleting the information altogether with its source. That would be much more constructive, what you did is damaging the encyclopedia. While I may-will try to do this myself, I do not totally understand what you are criticising. The source itself says muslims of Athens criticized and protested the absense of a mosque. So, why this does not qualify as a minority problem? Anyway, it is easy to find many sources that describe the current situation as a "problem", take for example the BBC: "...though the city authorities, aware of the problem..." (ie, the problem of the lack of an official mosque in Athens) [3]
2) With regard to the "discrimination" paragraph, are you aware that you have also deleted a source published in 2011 and speaking about a 2009 event? (ie, Thrace Court of Appeal's decision about Xanti Turkish Union's appeal) This proves that there is consistency in Greek state's minority policy since 1980's. That means, what that "20 year old" source (Whitman, 1990) writes is still valid. However, it is better to keep it, too, since it mentions the historical root of the current situation. Besides, you have also deleted a 2003 source, too, as part of the same paragraph. You have also deleted another source from 1999, that of UN Refugee Agency's report. All those point to severe problems of this minority, both historical and contemporarly.
3) About "mentioning every single cemetary", I understand your concern about this article being more of a summary so I summarized the recent attacks. However, upon your request, I will make it an even more of a summary. About other minorities, if they, too, are subjected such frequent atrocities, those should be mentioned, too (rather than deleting the information about Turkish minority, we should complete the lacking information for others)
4) I do not think any of us would object that "Turkish" is an ethnic group like "Albanian" and not a religious one. Therefore the Turkish minority in Greece should be classified like Albanian or Armenian minorities, no matter if they are recognized as such in a treaty or not. We in Wikipedia are not required to organize our articles according to treaties.
5) The new paragraph you introduced instead of the one you delete contains Alexandris as the single source. However, I can not find the information you wrote in the page you indicate (page 120) of that book. In any case, Alexandris is not a reliable source about minority issues, he is very political and at times gives false information. (eg. in the page you referred, page 120, he says the oldest mosque on Imbros and Tenedos dates from 1965, while this is wrong by order of a few centuries) I suggest you to confirm everything he says from a more reliable source. Please also give more exact page numbers for each information.
Filanca (talk) 21:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no Muslim "minority" in Athens, rather the Muslims there are recent immigrants. Hence the "problem" of the mosque in Athens is not a "minority" issue. You are trying to make it one though, and that is fairly obvious. As far as "consistency" and "sever problems of the minority" that is just your own POV and OR. Not interested. Regarding "atrocities", you again need to look up the definition of the word. Cemetery desecrations are not "atrocities", and I don't care how much you summarize it, they are beyond the scope of the article. The mere fact that you keep using the word "atrocities" speaks volumes about your motivation and POV. I've already explained to you why the Turkish minority is listed as a religious minority, if you aren't listening, that's not my problem. Lastly, Alexandris is a very reliable source. The fact that that you think he is "very poltical" says more about your motivation than his. And if you think he is so unreliable, why do you want the page number anyway? The information is all there, it's just a few pages after the Imbros and Tenedos section. I also strongly advise you against canvassing other Turkish users for support, it is a reportable (and blockable) offense. Athenean (talk) 21:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

My reply would be:

1) In which way being recent does not make Muslims a minority? And muslims in Athens are not that recent (even when setting aside Ottomans). See for example this source: Greek state considered (but did not build) a mosque in Athens first in 1880. An unofficial mosque was built in 1980. There are an estimated 200,000 muslims living in Athens, 10,000 of those are Greek citizens.

2) Re-adding the paragraph about discrimination since you do not object to that.

3) The minority was subject to frequent attacks in the recent years and that is important -- in one case a mosque was set on fire while 40 people were locked in. I would understand keeping it summarized here but omitting this important situation would be wrong. As for "atrocity", English is not my native language so I may pick up a word that is not appropriate from time to time. I will use "attacks" which sounds like more proper.

4) I understand that you want to classify Turks as a religious minority because of the Treaty of Lausanne which mentions a muslim minority in Greece, not a Turkish one. Again, here in Wikipedia we are not bound to organize our articles according to any treaty or government policy. Are Turks an ethnic group? Yes. Are there Turks in Greece? Yes. They have no difference from Albanian or Armenian minority in Greece in terms of being an ethnic minority. We are not in a position to consider all Turkish minority as muslims, there may be atheists or Christians among the Turks. See Ethnologue: Languages of Greece (...) Turkish [tur] 128,000 in Greece (1976 WA). Thrace and Aegean regions. Alternate names: Osmanli. Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish [4]

5) Do you say Alexandris is very reliable even after the example of his giving a faulty date as I indicated above? I am not totally against using him as a source, but given his track record of writing faulty information about Turks, I suggested to confirm what he said from other sources. And since your reference page number to his book is definitely wrong, if you will not correct, I will have to tag it.

6) My canvassing: There is no harm at notifying people who we think may be interested to an issue. The only person I mentioned this discussion is (I guess) interested (and, incidentally, he says he is not Turkish).
Filanca (talk) 21:05, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

In what way does being a Muslim does not make one a minority? You need to look up the definition of the word "minority" if you do not understand how the recent Muslim immigrants are different from a minority. Forget the Ottomans, there haven't been any Muslims in Athens between 1821 and the 1980s. So no, there isn't a Muslim minority in Athens. I also absolutely object to the paragraph about "discrimination". This is arguably the most POV-ish of all your edits. Minorities in Greece are treated relatively well (especially when compared to Turkey), and their rights are guaranteed by the constitution. Greece is moreover an EU member and has to adhere to certain standards regarding treatment of minorities. They receive public education in their own language, are allowed to use that language freely, they have radio stations, newspapers, everything. They can build as many mosques as they want, and have full freedom of religion, property rights, all that. Compare that with how minorities are treated in Turkey. It seems to me you are nit-picking, looking for something to complain about for the sake of POV-pushing. Sure, if you're willing to look hard enough, there is discrimination against minorities even in Sweden. Same with the "attacks". These are relatively minor incidents, particularly when one compares them to attacks on minorities in neighboring countries (e.g. Kosovo, Turkey. Wait, do you consider the Kurds in Turkey to be a minority or do you consider them to be "Mountain Turks"?). The information about the attacks can go in the article on the Turks of Western Thrace (which is why I didn't remove it from there), but not here. It is beyond the scope of the article. I've looked at the other articles about minorities in Europe, and none of them mention "attacks", even though there have been attacks against minorities in all those countries. Regarding the classification of the Turkish minority, as a result of the Treaty of Lausanne, most of the sources on the subject also classify them similarly. That is why we do so here, not because of the Treaty of Lausanne, but because that is how most sources classify them. By the way, I noticed there isn't even an article about minorities in Turkey. Would you be interested in helping me create it? Athenean (talk) 01:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Recent immigrants (in Europe, typically the economy-driven post-war immigration after 1945/50) are generally not subsumed under ethnic "minorities", a term which is reserved for autochthonous peoples. This is also the standard view followed throughout WP. So, while the Kurds or Greeks in Turkey are definitely to be described and classified as a minority, recent Muslim immigrants to Greece are not. A different case, though, would be long-term residents of Turkish descent in Greece who were not expelled following the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:53, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Gun Powder Ma. This issue seems controversial, a look at Minority group article will releave definitions of "minority" that has nothing to do to with recentness or birthplace. I was not the editor who wrote about "muslims in Athens" in this article, I only added their problem. Besides, as wrote above, the Greek government considered building a mosque in Athens from 1880s to 1920s -- which proves enough muslims living in the city to consider a mosque before the post-war immigration.[5] In any case, there lives an estimated ten to fifteen thousand muslims of Greek citizenship in Athens today, a figure high enough for need of at least one mosque. Filanca (talk) 11:57, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

If we were to take the most extensive definition of "minority", as you seem to favour, we would end up in our globalized world with 200+ ethnic minorities alone for each state (the Minorities in New York alone would hold thousands of them). But as none of the WP article series "Minorities in x" do have such a wide scope, so I would argue we should follow their example. If the ambiguity, however, continues to stir discussions, I would prefer to see the article title narrowed down to "Ethnic minorities in Greece" (and unrelated material removed from the article) - this is actually also how most of the other European articles of this series are designated (see template at bottom). Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:20, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I am not favoring one definition over another, merely indicating that the border between immigrant and minority is blurry and it seems there is a controversy of definition. Unless there is an general agreement among scholars, it would not be correct for Wikipedia to favor a certain definition. Filanca (talk) 19:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

An example of considering immigrant groups as minorities, from the Guardian: Ethnic minorities to make up 20% of UK population by 2051.Filanca (talk) 20:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

User:Athenean claimed that this edit should be POV pushing. But I don't understand why User:Athenean felt this edit POV pushing. Maybe he gave wrong link. About the term "Greek state's discimination", I couldn't find such wording. We can use the term "oppression and discrimination by the Greek government". (This question immediately brings to mind the situation of the Turkish Muslim minority of Western Thrace, who continue to be subject to oppression and discrimination by the Greek Government. Turkey seeks only to see this minority enjoy ail its rights emanating from international treaties and live in peace as equal Greek.... About Pomaks, we can mention in 1954 the Greek government relaxed its traditional antipathy towards the use of ethnic labels to refer to ethnic minorities in Western Thrace and upheld the entire Pomak/Turk/Muslim minority as 'Turkish'.", "Greece does not recognise any ethnic or national minorities apart from a religious minority, the "Muslim minority of Thrace". etc. Here is not a Wikipedia of the Greek government. And I've never heard the term "Gökalpian pan-Turkist". What does it mean ? Is this a production by Greek chauvinism ? Takabeg (talk) 06:41, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Takabeg, Alexandris uses the term "Gökalpian" in a book on a page (p. 124) used as reference in the article. Filanca (talk) 00:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

@Athanean:

1) There are some definitions in Minority group, you may want to look, too. This is an important problem for muslims of Athens, who number hundreds of thousands of people, no matter if you call them community or minority. Mark however, among the muslims in Athens are some ten to fifteen thousand Greek citizens, who are officially accepted by the Greek government as a minority.

2) The reason you give for deleting "discrimination" paragraph is personal opinions. Please do not delete information with proper references, you are damaging the encyclopedia.

3) Attacks to the Turkish minority in Greece are notable, as attested by its sources. Please stop deleting.

4) There can be no doubt that "Turk" is not a religion but an ethnic group. Denying the existance of Turkish minority in Greece and calling them as "the muslim minority" is the official policy of the Greek government and is downright POV in Wikipedia. See the Human Right Watch's call to the Greek government: "•Acknowledge the existence of the Turkish minority, as has been done in the past, most recently in the 1950s, and grant ethnic Turks all the civil and political rights enjoyed by other Greek citizens"
Filanca (talk) 13:20, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, first of all, both of you need to start learning to indent your comments. I am not going to respond to Takabeg's personal attacks, except to remind him that Gökalpian Pan-Turkism is a product of Turkish chauvinism. As for Filanca, you are starting to repeat yourself. You have already been told by not just me that recent Muslim immigrants to Athens are not a "minority". You need to accept that. Also, your claim that there are "ten to fifteen thousand Greek citizens, who are officially accepted by the Greek government as a minority." is WP:OR, and even if true, that group has never asked for a mosque in Athens. That this is "an important problem" is also just your opinion and nothing more. I've already explained to you why your edits are POV-pushing, and unlike you, I tire of repeating myself. Your sources for the "frequent attacks" are www.abttf.org, which is definitely not a reliable source, as it is ultra-partisan and moreover fails the criteria for WP:RS, while Hurriyet, which is a reliable source, speaks of a single instance of 10 gravestones being desecrated. How you go from that to "frequent attacks" is a classic example of POV-pushing by misusing sources. As for your sources about "discrimination" they are all either outdated or impossible to verify. And they're not even your sources, they are a cut-and-paste job from another article. The Greek government does acknowledge the existence of a Turkish minority, and this minority enjoys equal civil and political rights enjoyed by other Greek citizens. I have also fixed the page number for Alexandris, so I think that's settled. Athenean (talk) 20:26, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Athanean;
1) Did you have a look at the Minority group article as I suggested? Take, for example, Feagin's definition of a minority, there is nothing about recentness in his definition. That 15,000 muslim immigrants from Western Thrace live in Athens was referenced: Al Shahi and Lawless's book, you deleted this -- did'nt you notice?
You say "that group (ie, immigrants from Western Thrace) has never asked for a mosque in Athens". Read this interview with members of Greek-Turkish muslims living in Athens: "Because there is no imam to perform the funeral rituals, our deceased have been travelling an 800 km distance to Gümülcine ([Komotini]) or to İskeçe ([Xanthi]) for year... There is no one who would teach our religion to our children. (...) We bought books from Turkey with our own money and we made photocopies, but it is not enough... Nowadays we only listen to the Glorious Qur'an from cassettes, because we do not know how to read it." Some Greek citizen Muslims already have illegal mescits (small mosques) while others can not do that due to high costs involved. See [6]. That this is an important problem is not "according to me": There are enough coverage of reliable sources that indicates it is notable including the BBC and the US Department of State. (included in the sources you deleted from the article)

2) Discrimination paragraph: Wikipedia lets use of reliable sources no matter when they were published and the oldest source in that article was published 21 years ago (that of Whitman, 1990). There is another source in this article dated from 1974, no problem. It is important to keep Whitman as a source, since the situation outlined there is valid even today (as attested by other sources). What do you mean that the sources in the article are impossible to verify? Which ones exactly?

3) About attacks: There is nothing wrong with ABTTF, it is a respectable organisation, being NGO in Special Consultative Status with the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations, a Member of the Fundamental Rights Platform (FRP) of the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights and a Member of the Federal Union of European Nationalities (FUEN). And there is no reason to doubt the news of Hürriyet. Anyway, it is fairly easy to find other sources about attacks to the Turkish minority in Greece: Read a US Department of State report [7], or a Greek news agency [8] or the report of an American human rights organization [9] among many. There has been six incidents in 2010 and three in the first months of 2011, I consider that as frequent, but we may indicate the number of incidents instead of saying "frequent" if you'd like.

4) "The Greek government does acknowledge the existence of a Turkish minority" the sources you deleted do not say so. However, if even the Greek government acknowledge them, you should have no problem to move them from being a subsection under "Muslims" to an equal header as other ethnic minorities in Greece. And again, please, stop deleting information with proper sources.

5) About Alexandris: Thanks for fixing the page number. The link still goes to the wrong page.
Filanca (talk) 23:50, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Once again I have to remind you to learn to indent your comments using ":". Now, since you're so insistent on using the wikipedia article on Minority group, I will quote the first sentence of that article: A minority is a sociological group that does not make up a politically dominant voting majority of the total population of a given society.. The key word here is "voting", i.e. a minority consists of citizens of a country. Since recent Muslim immigrants are not citizens, they can't vote, therefore they are not a minority, get it? The situation has changed a lot since 1990 (even if you refuse to accept that), and so Whitman is outdated. It's interesting you mention the US Department of State Report. Quoting from the report, I see "The constitution and other laws and policies protect religious freedom and, in practice, the government generally enforced these protections. The government generally respected religious freedom in law and in practice. There was no change in the status of respect for religious freedom by the government during the reporting period.", also "The government gives special consideration to Muslim minority students from Thrace for admission to universities and technical institutes, setting aside 0.5 percent of the total number of places for them annually and implementing a program during university entrance exams that accepts lower passing scores.". I also see some mention of egg-throwing and a broken window. Is this what you consider "notable" and important"? Eggs? A broken window? You completely choose to ignore that the Greek government respects the rights of Muslims, and instead focus on eggs and a broken window. As for the "Greek news agency" [10] and "American human rights organization" [11], they all refer to the same incident as the one mentioned in Hurriyet", i.e. the same incident of cemetery desecration. In other words, you are using three different sources for the same incident and then claiming that there are "frequent attacks". This is ludicrous. ABTTF is a self-published advocacy group, we don't use sources like that here for obvious reasons. If a cemeteray was damaged in a hailstorm, they would claim the Greeks did it. The Greek government provides all kinds of services for the Muslim minority, so of course it accepts the existence of a Muslim minority, if it didn't it wouldn't provide all these services, would it? This is obvious to anyone who does not want to see it. Athenean (talk) 06:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

1) I said above that the definition of a minority is controversial when it comes to immigrants. There are different definitions within the article and muslims in Athens look like fitting Feagin's definition. By the way, the first sentence is speaking of voting majority, not a voting minority. In my opinion, that sentence is meant to mean, if a minority is denied voting rights, like it has been under apartheid regime in South Africa, they would not cease to be a minority. Anyway, Greek-citizen muslims in Athens can vote and they want mosques, too.

2) Discrimination: If the situation have changed since Whitman wrote, we would still report what Whitman wrote in 1990 and also write what has changed since then. However, the other sources you deleted without reason are from 1999 (Human Rights Watch), 2003 (Hirschon), 2009 (Carter, Irani, Volkan), 2011 (ABTTB) and all attest that what Whitman wrote is at least partially still valid today. You are violating Wikipedia principles by deleting those sources.

3) Attacks: The US Department of state report was a reference for attacks against the Turks in Greece. We are not putting (Greek government + Greeks) into a general sort of trial here, so your point is not exactly relevant. There are no absolutes, for example,This US Department of State raport in 2006 says "while the Government generally respected this (practice of religion right, non-Orthodox groups sometimes faced administrative obstacles or encountered legal restrictions on religious practice". In their 2010 report they say "non-Orthodox groups sometimes faced administrative obstacles or encountered legal restrictions" [12]. You are speaking of this interim report for the second half year 2010 (please give relevant links as you refer to documents). It says "in the status of respect for religious freedom by the government", the problems in the previous reporsts still hold. See section about religious freedoms, esp. how muslims in Athens have to travel to Western Thrace for religious ceremonies due to lack of mosques. We have documened use of molotov bombs in attacks against mosques and Turkish societies. Also in the US Department of State July-December 2010 interim report [13]; far-right group locked 40 people in an unofficial mosque in Athens and set the building on fire in 2 November 2010. In August Pospos muslim cemetary in Komotini was desecrated, tombstones broken. In December a mosque and in a separate instance, a Turkish society were attacked by molotov cocktails. In earlier reports [14] in September 2009, Toxotes mosque was arsoned. In December 2009 Xanti mosque was vandalized with graffiti. In February 2010, a Komotini cemetery was desecrated. These incidents look quite regular. This report speaks of an attack to a muslim cemetery on 8 October 2010 while Hürriyet reports another one that took place on 15 August 2010. Reports of NGO's like ATTB are among acceptable sources in Wikipedia, if you have doubts, you may submit it for examination. But, after all, we have verified most of the incidents they mentioned from the US Department of Defence reports, Hürriyet, a human rights organization and a Greek news agency.

4) We are speaking of Greece's denial of a Turkish minority, not a muslim one. I am re-adding this denial and references since you fail to provide any valid reason for deleting it.

Filanca (talk) 10:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

1) There is simply no way I am going to accept the recent Muslim immigrants of Athens as a minority. Remember how you were wrong about the use of the word "artocity" because English was not your native language. As you did then, I suggest you accept that may be wrong on this point as well and defer to those whose native language is English (or at least close enough). Now, I am willing to accept a single sentence mentioning how the Greek citizens who are Muslims of Western Thrace (not just Turks, this includes Pomaks and Roma) do not have a mosque in Athens and need to travel to Western Thrace for religious ceremonies, but no more.

2) The situation was even worse in the 1920s. Shall we mention that too? Shall we also mention how the Muslims were absolute masters of the land before 1913? The situation has changed significantly since the 1990s, please accept that.

3) Neither the frequency nor severity of the attacks are sufficient to warrant mention in the article, as I've also explained on the WP:DR page. Eggs? Graffiti? Broken windows? This is minor vandalism, like something teenagers would do. How about the fact that not a single member of the minority has been harmed in all these years? And even if we accept the claim of 6 attacks in 2010 and 3 this year, that is nowhere close to "frequent". Forget it, this is totally WP:UNDUE. This is the point I insist on the most.

4) I can agree to a single sentence (neutrally-worded of course), that the Greek government does not recognize a separate "ethnic Turkish" minority, but rather a single Muslim minority, as stipulated in the Treaty of Lausanne, but no more. Athenean (talk) 19:59, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The mosque construction in Athens is irrelevant with this article. Of course, there is another article that deals with immigrants.Alexikoua (talk) 13:16, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Jews and Armenians[edit]

What is this "other minorities" section? Jews are obviously a religious minority just as Muslims are, and Armenians ought to be considered "linguistic and cultural" minorities like the Roma. Am I wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.176.43.83 (talk) 09:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Religious minorities[edit]

This dispute resolution request was not resolved but closed - this is probably due to my inability to edit in Wikipedia for some time. Meanwhile, I see that the most important part of the dispute, that is, classifying Turks under "religious minorities / muslims" is still remaining in the article. I proposed to place Turks under ethnic minorities. There is no need to make distinction between "linguistic communities" and ethnic minorities, either. Under "religious minorities" there can still be a separate "Muslims" section. Another issue was alluding to the long standing problem of the lack of a mosque in Athens. A sentence like "great majority of Turkic Muslims in Thrace espouse moderate political views and are ready to work and prosper as citizens of the Greek state", even if referenced, constitue a violation of neutral point of view policy of this encyclopedia, probably reflecting that of the source itself. Do you think we may agree on these points here or do we need to speak it on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard? Filanca (talk) 20:24, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I have anything to add since last time we discussed (see above). Athenean (talk) 07:55, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Slavic-speaking[edit]

I have recently found citing in the last paragraph of the section where the work Minorities in Greece: aspects of a plural society, Richard Clogg, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1-85065-706-8, p.142, is cited. As I tried to explain previously to User:Macedonian the source can be considered as reliable, but not its interpretation "Now, this people mainly identify themselves as ethnic Greek."

The 4th paragraph on page 142 of the mentioned book says that "it took several generations for the Greek language and Greek national conscious to take hold among Slavic-speaking population of Greek Macedonia." The source further says that at the beginning before 1950 only a few people redirected their identity and only after free higher education was offered that "It is only then that the assimilationist goals of Greek national education system came to achieve their intended results". The paragraph then concludes: "the vast majority of the Slavic-speaking (and formerly Slavic-speaking) population identify themselves with the Greek national collectivity". The text does not mention that these people identify as ethnic Greeks (as it is interpreted in the sentence I edited), but as having Greek national identity which is not equal.

Therefore, in my previous edit I corrected the sentence to "Although, until 1950s only a few Slavic-speakers had Greek national conscious, after the assimilation enforced through the years by the Greek educational system, the majority of these people nowadays identify with the national Greek collective". I think in this way the sentence would give a complete picture about the information provided in the source and the conscious of these people. I would like to know what others think? (ДАБ (talk) 10:16, 12 December 2012 (UTC))

I have two remarks to make. That particular section is based on linguistic arguments and therefore giving details about the reasons behind the self-identification of these people doesn't seem to belong in that particular section but perhaps it could be added at the section below that where it describes the Orthodox population and its self-identification characteristics. The second objection that I have is that Lori Danforth sounds more affirmative than the Clogg reference as to the Hellenisation of these groups. So I am not sure why you prefer one source over the other. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 10:33, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the remarks. For the first remark, I agree that if these events have happened centuries ago details would not have been necessary, but these people are still alive. Also, it is mentioned in the text that these people identify as "ethnic Greek" instead of having "Greek national identity", which is also indicated in the both Lori and Clogg references. As I have heard, in Greek ethnic=national(?), but in English it is not. Regarding your second remark, I pointed out Clogg's reference for simplicity but also Lori's reference says that these people have been Hellenized and now have Greek national identity. Therefore, I think the wording 'ethnic Greek' should be corrected.

Regarding the subsection 'Christian Orthodox Slavophones' I think it is weird to be structured as it is. Besides the first four sentences which speak about religion and church, everything else is general about Slavic-speakers. I suggest that part of that text should be placed before the subsection. Also a short notice can be added that most of these people have been gradually incorporated or assimilated to now feel as part of the Greek nation and for further details people can read the article Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia. (ДАБ (talk) 12:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC))

Lori uses the term "Hellenised" which is a strong indicator of ties to the Greek nation and their self-identification as Greeks. Anthropologically if one can make the distinction between national and ethnic ties, that is a difficult question; insofar as the actual ethnic identity being a difficult thing to determine for anyone since it depends on many factors. But perhaps we can remove the term "ethnic" and just say they have "Greek national identity" since this is what the sources support. As far as the rest of your proposals of rearranging the order of the material and directing the reader to the main article I see no problem. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 16:29, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Mosque in Athens[edit]

The mosque construction in Athens is irrelevant with this article. Of course, there is another article that deals with immigrants.Alexikoua (talk) 13:16, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

"Immigrants do not constitute a mintority" this point was made in this discussion page, see above. However, as explained in the article, Athenian muslim community is not only consisted of recent immigrants but also from Greek citizens, who count about 15,000 people. They are deprived of the religious rights muslims enjoy in Western Thrace. On the other hand, the difference between immigrants and a minority is not clear. That immigrants does not constitute a minority is questionable. First attempts to build a mosque in Athens (after the Ottoman era) was in 1880 - indicating a muslim community in Athens of at least 133 years old. Filanca (talk) 16:18, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

We've been over this 2-3 times already. You coming back every few months and reverting to your version is not helping, in fact it is disruptive. It's already been explained to you why immigrants are not a minority, and why the Turks are listed under Muslims. Repeating yourself is not going to change anything. By the way, the info you added is a bit stale [15]. You may want to check again. Athenean (talk) 18:50, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Athenean, although you say this was already covered several times, your previous comments were not clear on this issue. Will you please care to re-explain, focusing strictly on the topic:

(1) why you think 15,000 Greek citizen muslims living in Athens do not count as minority and neither is (at least) 130 years old, some 300,000 muslim community living in Athens and

(2) your arguments for "Turks" falling under a religion but not an ethnic group?

I examined the link you provided, it is relevant but does not contradict what I wrote, on the contrary, it is affirming. I am adding that one, too. Filanca (talk) 20:50, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Are you serious? You are asking me to repeat myself? I'm not going to. I told you why we include the Turkish minority under "Muslims" and not under ethnic minorities, it's all in the talkpage. You should also realize that the language you use is unencyclopedic and in fact inflammatory ("Another problem", "continue to suffer"). Such language is not neutral in tone and is a violation of NPOV. And stop edit-warring. Athenean (talk) 21:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Athenean, you have given no answer to the questions above, yet. If you did so, please re-write, quote, or write from scratch, you are welcome with all. If not, will you be willing to bring this issue to a dispute resolution process of Wikipedia? Filanca (talk) 21:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

For the last time, recent immigrants are not a minority, can you try and understand that? The mosque is only ever mentioned in connection with the needs of the migrants, not the purported 15,000 Greek muslim citizens. You are taking one source that says there are 15,000 Muslim Greek citizens in Athens and then combining that with a source that says there is no mosque for the Muslim immigrants. That is WP:SYNTH. The reason the Turks are included under "religious" and not "ethnic" minorities is because of the Treaty of Lausanne, and the whole body of literature does the same, too. Does Turkey consider the (few remaining) Greeks in Turkey a religious or an ethnic minority? Athenean (talk) 21:20, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

The 15,000 muslims in Athens are migrants from Western Thrace, that's called internal migration (and they have access to a mosque as soon they visit their homeland). By the way the source [[16]] doesn't even say thay they demand a mosque in Athens... I'm sorry but this is clear wp:or. You have obviously comfused the 15,000 community with the issue of illegal migration, which is clearly wp:pov and extreme wp:synth.Alexikoua (talk) 21:26, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Athenean;

Recent immigrants do not constitute a minority according to some definitions, but not according to others. This we talked before, see above.
Muslims in Athens are not exactly recent. Although their numbers swelled beginning in 1970's there were enough muslims there to consider building a mosque in 1880's and 1930's.
I am not combining resources. Madianou writes

"In the 1980s the Greek government offered (mainly clerical) jobs in banks and

public administration institutions in Athens to the members of the minority in Thrace,

allegedly to weaken the minority in Thrace. The truth is that the people who accepted

these jobs were deprived of their minority rights when they came to Athens. This is

why there are no mosques and no Turkish language schools in Athens to cater for the

Muslims and Turkish speaking people." (p.63)

You can see both the existance of Turkish muslims in Athens and their lack of a mosque in the same source.

Treaty of Lausanne does not make Turkish etnic identity a religious one. There are all sorts of strange definitions in international treaties, we are bound not by political twists but by facts. These people are speaking Turkish, they are of Turkish cultural origin and they are Greek citizens. There may be atheists, christians among them, that does not change their ethnicity.
We are speaking about minorities in Greece, not in Turkey or any other state. This is not a comparison of different states.
If you are still not convinced, would you please reply my call to bring this issue to a mediated dispute resolution process? Filanca (talk) 21:40, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Alexikoua, read the above quote by Madianou [17] about how the Greek (citizen) muslims in Athens are deprived of their minority rights including a mosque. Filanca (talk) 21:52, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

According to some definitions? According to which definitions? Seems like this is only your definition. There were enough muslims to consider buildin a mosque in the 1930s? Really? Got a source? As far as I can tell any remaining Muslims in Athens were sent to Turkey in 1923 as part of the population exchange. We are not bound by treaties, but we are bound by reliable sources. As far as I can tell, the reliable sources generally follow the convention of the Treaty of Lausanne. Can you demonstrate otherwise? Also, you did not answer my question. Since we are not "bound by treaties", are the Greeks in Turkey an ethnic or a religious minority? You can't possibly expect me to accept your point about the "religious" vs. "ethnic" argument as long as you keep evading this question. Regarding the 15,0000 Muslim Greek citizens in Athens, that can be addressed in the appropriate section, there is no need to bring in the immigrants. I don't have high hopes for disupute resolution with someone who denies he is edit-warring and thinks such behavior is justified. By the way, would be so kind as to learn how to properly indent your comments? It makes it hard for other people to follow the discussion otherwise. Athenean (talk) 22:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

(1) Definition of a minority: Remember, we talked in this page (above) about a definition by Fegin in the Minority group page. According to that definition, a minority group has five characteristics, none of which related to being citizen or longevity in a country.

(2) Furthermore, muslim immigrants in Athens are not quite recent. Their migration increased in 1970's so we are speaking a period of at least 35 years now. Part of them were even earlier, see next point.

(3) Attempts to build an Athens Mosque since 1880's: I have already given source for that in the article: "In a unique situation, the Greek State attempted to facilitate the building of a mosque, right from 1880 to 1934, and again, finally just before the Olympics in 2004. All attempts over the years met with failure." [18]

(4) About "Turks" not being a religion but an ethnic group: If common sense and basic culture is not enough, read the Ethnologue web page I sugested above. For your convenience: Languages of Greece (...) Turkish [tur] 128,000 in Greece (1976 WA). Thrace and Aegean regions. Alternate names: Osmanli. Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish [19] Whatever Lausanne Treaty says will not change that fact.

(5) Greek Muslims in Athens: Do we agree at least to mention their situation in the article?

The situation of minorities in other countries are not a part of this article, therefore irrelevant. But since you ask my opinion, I would not take the absurd step to call an ethnic group as a religion, that includes ethnic Greek minority in Turkey.

I am trying to base this discussion on a rational ground. My edits were deleted (as of now, once again) without sufficient explanation and discussion. Under these conditions I do not think my behavior qualifies for an edit war. But I would support you if you wish to bring this issue to the attention of an arbitrator. Filanca (talk) 23:46, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid I don't remember. I have never seen a source that considers recent immigrants to be a "minority", especially in a Greek context. The Muslims of Western Thrace and the recent immigrants in Athens are very different from each other. Your points (2) and (3) are irrelevant. As far the Turkish minority, you will note they are listed as "Turks", so I don't see what the issue is. However, they do form part of Greece's Muslim minority, so I don't see what's so objectionable about listing them together with the Pomaks under the "Muslim minority" heading. Regarding the "situation" of Greek Muslims in Athens, it may be best to wait, things will change in the near future. Athenean (talk) 18:09, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I've replied your message concerning muslims in Athens in the next section. About point (4), Turks being an ethnic minority, because

We are bound to report the truth here and this article's layout does not represent it accurately by classifying Turks under religion.
It is Greek government's official policy to deny the existance of an ethnic Turkish minority within its borders and this denial is an important issue for the minority.

I think you also know why it is important, because you asked me above my opinion about if Greek minority in Turkey is a religious or ethnic one, and refused to accept my point here until I replied.Filanca (talk) 19:51, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Problems of muslim minority in Athens[edit]

Should this article contain the problems of the muslim minority in Athens? (particularly lack of a mosque, a cemetary) Filanca (talk) 19:37, 27 February 2013 (UTC) Filanca (talk) 19:37, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Problems can be included in the article or it can be a separate article of its own. We should see the general tendency in WP. I checked Minorities in Turkey, Minorities in Romania and Turks in Bulgaria. In all cases the articles contain some problems of the minorities. So I think , the problems (not only of Turks but also of the others) can be included here . A second solution (I wouldn't suggest) may be creating a separate article. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 20:31, 27 February 2013 (UTC).

Athenean, I will reply your comments here since now there is a request of comments in this issue.

(1) Your bad memory should not prevent you to click on the link and read Fegin's definition.

My points (2) and (3) above are relevant since you call muslims in Athens "recent immigrants" while evidently they are not so. A mosque being considered back from 1880's, even the recent wave of muslim immigrants since 1970's are not recent, they have children born in Athens, we are speaking of a second and even third generation born in Greece.

(5)Whether or not Greek government will build a mosque in the near or far future or never (it is planned since 1880!) we are responsible for writing the facts in the encyclopedia as of today.Filanca (talk) 19:43, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

My bad memory? More like your bad English comprehension (remember those "atrocities" [20]?). The extremely diverse immigrant community of Athens, which includes Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, various African nationalities, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and many others do not meet criteria (3)-(5) of Feigin's definition. Namely, they do NOT share sense of collective identity and common burdens, they do NOT share rules about who belongs and who does not determine minority status, and they certainly do NOT tend to marry within the "group". So this weird definition of "minority" that includes all and any Muslims immigrants to Athens as a "minority", is just your definition. The immigrant community in Athens is an extremely diverse group of people, most of whom aren't even Muslims, and even those that are Muslims are very heterogeneous (e.g. Nigerians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis). You are also contradicting yourself. According to you, Muslims in Athens are a "Muslim minority", but Muslim Turks in Thrace are not part of the "Muslim" minority but an "ethnic minority". The Turks of Western Thrace are Muslim, aren't they? Therefore there is nothing wrong with listing them under the Muslim minority of Greece. It is precisely due to such nonsensical POV-pushing that no one has come to your aid, despite all your canvassing, in case you're wondering. Athenean (talk) 20:39, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Leave aside my level of English comprehension, and let us concentrate on the subject matter, please. Fegin's description was ONE example of minority definition which does not exclude immigrants - remember, you accused me of presenting my own minority definition. On the other hand, muslim minority does fit in this definition: A shared sense of collective identity and common burdens (collective identity, being part of the muslim community the ummah, common burdens include lack of a mosque), socially shared rules about who belongs and who does not determine minority status (definition of being a muslim is very clear to believers, see pillars of Islam), and tendency to marry within the group (a very clear tendency for muslims). When I am speaking of "muslims in Athens" of course I exclude non-muslim immigrants. As for my (supposed) contradiction,

The term minority often is used to describe people who have "less power, are oppressed, or are a subordinate segment within a political unit" (Myers 2007, p. 42). A person can be classified as a minority based on his or her religious affiliation, age, disabilities, sexual orientation, or gender. And a person can belong to both a minority group and the majority group. For example, "An American Roman Catholic who is white belongs to a prominent religious minority group but also is a member of the racially dominant group" (Parrillo 2006, p. 17). Women are considered a minority group based on their gender and because they have been oppressed and controlled (Myers 2007), and women of color are often considered a minority within a minority. One can be born a member of a majority group and later become a member of a minority group (e.g., the elderly). People can be born with disabilities such as polio, blindness, and missing limbs, or disabilities can occur over the course of a person's life (Parrillo 2006)" [21]

One individual may be more than one minority group according to their ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, disabilities, etc.

I have opened this Request for Comments in order to find a reasonable solution to this discussion. Wikipedia encourages to invite people (canvassing is not the proper term) in such a case. For some reason you have repeated your opinion that I am "POV-pushing" too many times. It is becoming disturbing, so stop doing that. If you feel need, you may file a complaint elsewhere. Filanca (talk) 01:49, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

You're not getting it. The recent Muslims immigrants are not a "minority" by any definition, Feigin's definition or otherwise. You have failed to provide any sources that consider recent Muslim immigrants in Athens to be part of a minority, it's that simple. So I think the problem is one of English comprehension, because you are misunderstanding the sources (e.g. Feigin being the best example). There is simply no way that a Bangladeshi that arrived in Athens yesterday is part of the Muslim minority of Greece, a well-defined group that includes Turks and Pomaks. According to your "ethnic-not-religious" logic, they should be part of a "Bangladeshi minority" anyway. As for the POV-pushing, sorry, but that's how I see your edits. There is a clear and unmistakable pattern to them: You are trying to promote a positive image of Turkey while at the same time doing all you can to present a negative image of Greece. It is plain for anyone to see. That's what I find disturbing. If you find it "disturbing", then stop doing it. Athenean (talk) 01:59, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, this is pretty complicated, especially since it's not clear what material was removed that we are discussing (one diff mentioned way above didn't lead to anything substantial). More details better since most people reluctant to read through a whole page of talk.

Also, I assume Fegin/Feigin is Feagin? I looked at Minority group article and needs better sourcing, but Feagin's definition seems a bit restrictive. The international law definitions would be of particular interedt.

Also, translation of Greek Language refs really is necessary; or English refs if possible, especially in the lead.

Generally speaking, if any minorities are suffering some discrimination and there are good sources, a brief mention should be made. And if it's a lot of discrimination, a larger article written could be written to link or to refer people to. Hard to say more without the facts. CarolMooreDC 02:09, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Athenean, we are not speaking of a Bangladeshi that arrived in Athens yesterday. We are speaking of a muslim that arrived in Athens in 1970's or was born in Athens as a child of such a person. We even speak of people who arrived earlier. Remember again, projects of an Athens mosque date back to 1880. Again, please stop commenting about me (my level of English, POV-pushing, whatever), stick to the issue at hand. Filanca (talk) 02:12, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Carolmooredc; thank you for commenting. This was the way I put this problem in the page before it was deleted. So, there is a problem of lack of mosque(s) and a cemetery for about 300,000 muslims living in Athens. About 15,000 of those hold Greek citizenship. The definition of a minority, if the immigrants and their children (even grand children) should be considered as a minority is one issue. However, there seem to be no question that the Greek citizen muslims are a minority. So I suggest adding their problems to the article. Filanca (talk) 02:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Most of those 300,000 Muslims in Athens you mention (inflated figure) arrived very recently, not the 1970s, not the 1880s. There were very few Muslims in Athens until the last 10-15 years, and you know this. So again, most Muslims in Athens are not part of any minority, they are recent migrants, and in fact most of them are just using Greece as a stepping stone to other European countries. Their problem is how to get to the rest of Europe, not that there is no mosque or Muslim cemetery. Athenean (talk) 02:32, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Ok, having looked at the relevant text and sources, I can see that it's a bit clunky and wordy with a slight POV tinge, but pretty much reflects the sources as I took a quick look. Just needs some judicious editing and I can give it a go on Monday; busy this weekend. Whether or not they are recent or long-time immigrants under Feigin's definition is really WP:Original research and therefore irrelevant. You'd need a WP:Reliable source to say something to that effect about Muslims in Athens. CarolMooreDC 05:21, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Finding sources for that is quite easy [22]. It is well-known that most Muslim migrants to Greece are quite recent, as well as very heterogeneous (Nigeria, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Iraq, etc...). Athenean (talk) 05:29, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

CarolMooreDC, I gave Feigins definition as one example of a minority definition that does not exclude immigrants (I was being criticised here about devising my own minority definitions). It was never proposed to be included in the article.

I would like to summarize the sources:

Number of muslims in Athens: [23]
Number of Greek citizen muslims in Athens: [24]
Some sources cite non-citizen immigrants as minorities: [25] [26]
Some immigrant muslims arrived in Athens at least 40 years ago, they are in second (even third generation) born in Athens, they are not temporarily staying there: [27]
Muslims in Athens suffering from lack of a mosque, cemetery, it is the remaning EU capital without a mosque: [28] [29] [30] [31]
Greek citizen muslims in Athens suffering from lack of a mosque, cemetery: [32]

Filanca (talk) 17:03, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Filanca asked me to comment. I don't want to get too involved in this article on a continuing basis, but I'll make some observations, as my opinion only.:

the effort to separate out "immigrants" from the group is missing the distinction: there are 3 possible groups to use: one is total people in the country, another is permanent residents, a third is legal permanent residents. When they arrived is not a primary factor, except when discussing the historical situation at different times.
Whether there is permission to build houses of worship is relevant information for the status of a religious minority. Whether there is permission to build a house of worship in a particular city at a particular time is however a detail which might be better in the more specialized article on Muslim minority of Greece -- but that article seems very incomplete--first general platitudes, and then an 2010 incident, and little more. It seems to suffer from OR, & needs some more exact citations from a wider range of references.
It is necessary to differentiate between the formal legal status of a group, and the actual situation.
there should not be a focus on the discrimination against a minority, but rather a factual review of the situation. Discrimination is one part of it.

Finally, I suggest that contending over minor details does not help in the general improvement of the article. I've always supported compromise--if it doubt whether to include a paragraph, include a summary sentence and more the rest elsewhere. Then it does not overbalance the article, and yet the information remains in full in WP. DGG ( talk ) 22:28, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

1.I agree. I cited early arrival of some immigrants as a measure of their permanent residence.

2.Athens is not an arbitrary city, it has a population close to 4 million people and a capital city. Number of muslims living there are estimated from 300,000 people up to 700,000. [33] A mosque is of demand and in project starting from 1880's until 21st century. These sources are not specificly written about the problems of muslim minority in Greece (they are about all minorities in Greece or about all muslims in Europe) but they allude to the problem of a mosque in Athens: Maria - Mirca Madianou, Mediating the Nation: News, Audiences and Identities in Contemporary Greece p. 63 [34] Shireen Hunter, Islam, Europe's Second Religion [35] p.185 Also [[36] this report] by US Department of State, although it is about minority problems in Greece, it is about all minorities not specificly muslims. In fact, in Greece, mosques can only get permission in Western Thrace and a few islands - a small part of the country and not accessible to most muslims living in the country.

So, this is an important issue that worth handling in this article.

3.I agree.

4.I agree.

Filanca (talk) 20:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the mosque problem in Athens. But if indeed there are three hundred thousand Muslims and the authorities ignore their basic religious need, that is a Problem (with capital P). Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 21:39, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Off course that's a problem, but it's not related with this article, since the specific number involves almost entirely seasonal or short term immigrants.Alexikoua (talk) 21:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

What does short term immigrant mean ? Did they arrive overnight ? Seasonal immigrants means temporary immigrants who stay only one season. Do you mean to tell me that three hundred immigrants are going to leave at the end of this season ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:41, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

This source says they are not seasonal workers:

Muslim immigrants with their second and third generation offspring that is born and raised in Greece. Those immigrants mostly came from the Arab World starting 40 years ago

With regard to immigrant-minority distinction (keeping in mind that the muslim population of Athens is consisted of immigrants AND Greek citizen native muslims from north of the country):

In European legal traditions, law distinguishes between minorities and migrants. However, cultural, political, and socio-economic changes that are taking place in Europe due to long-term migration may affect this impermeable view of the law. Since early 1990's Greece experiencing a situation in which cultural boundaries between the two phenomena are gradually fading away. The law in many cases is unable to distinguish between where a minority begins to exist and where an immigrant group ends. For example, residence in the host country over two or more generations through acquisition of citizenship would result in the attribution of minority characteristics to groups which formerly would have been called 'immigrants'.
(...) Thus, immigrants and historical and traditional minorities should be viewed within the scope of social inclusion at the same time as one takes into account preservation of their religious, linguistic, or national affinities.

(from Konstantinos Tsitselikis, Old and New Islam in Greece: From Historical Minorities to Immigrant Newcomers p.18 [37])

This is the reason why I am suggesting to consider the temple or cemetery problem in Athens (and, to a lesser extend, other cities except for Western Thrace) together for immigrants and minorities. Filanca (talk) 18:26, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Anna Stamou is nothing more than an activist, and Al-Yunaniya.com is not a reliable source. It's written in really bad English, for crying out loud. Similarly, Tsitselikis is not going to be the reason we are going to conflate recent immigrants with minorities. This is the article on Minorities in Greece, not Minorities and recent immigrants in Greece. The overwhelming majority of Muslims in Athens are recent (last few decades) migrants. No way can they be considered a minority. Are Turks in Germany an ethnic minority? Algerians in France? No, they are migrant communities. The issues you mention are relevant to Islam in Greece, but as you can see they are already covered. I really think we've got a case of WP:SCOPE here. Athenean (talk) 06:11, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Tsitselikis seems to be respectable scholar who published many works and being referenced by many others. See [38] and [39].

I see no reason to discard Tsitselikis as a source.

Stamou may not be a very reliable source. I will try to confirm the information she provided from other sources. Some alternative sources:

Migration of foreign workers to Greece started in 1970's (p.617), their numbers increased by time (p. 618) (Dimitris Charalambis, Laura Maratou-Alipranti, Andromachi Hadjiyanni Recent Social Trends in Greece, 1960-2000 [40])
While some Asian immigrants are temporary workers or see Greece as a transit country, others are linked to the mainstream Greek Economy. Egyptians may be a classical example of assimilation, they have been in Greece for several decades. (The Integration of Immigrants in Athens: Developing Indicators and Statistical Measures Martin Baldwin-Edwards p.38)

Turks in Germany are considered a minority, see for example [41]

Filanca (talk) 20:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Academic papers citing Turks living in Germany as a minority: [42]

And books: "turkish+minority+in+germany"&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1

The problem would not cease to be about minorities even if we did not consider none of the immigrants as a minority, because there are Greek citizen muslims living in Athens. Filanca (talk) 19:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

The problem will soon be a thing of the past: [43]. Translation:

The mosque in Athens in the final straightaway, by order of Prime Minister Antonis Samaras. According to exclusive information obtained by the newspaper "ΤΑ ΝΕΑ", the only step remaining for the construction of the building, which in now way resembles traditional mosques, is the issuing of tenders by the Ministry of Transportation. The decision to construct a mosque was taken last September, quite some time before the insulting offer of Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan that Turkey pay for the construction of the mosque, which Muslim organizations in Athens rejected. The archbishop of the area where the mosque will be built supports the project saying it is a matter of religion freedom. The cost of the 350-person capacity mosque is around 846,000 euros, and the building will not have minarets, since according to the architects who designed it, the construction of a minaret would not be in harmony with the surroundings.

There you have it. You should be happy (or then again, maybe not). Athenean (talk) 19:31, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Once again, we are not (should not be) speaking here about users personally, that includes my sentiments. This project has been on agenda since 1880 and attracted considerable media attention. There has been more than one time that it seemed a mosque would be built, soon. If a mosque really opens up, that would be somthing worth mentioning, too. As for now we should mention the current situation. As it stands now, the article is very unbalanced. It mentions a temple of ancient Greek religion, which has a few thousand adherents, but fails to speak about well known problem of 300,000 muslims. Filanca (talk) 20:09, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

The mosque construction is already in motion. Your argument about 1880 is completely meaningless. Different era, different people. Unless you have a source that says a mosque is not going to be built, there is nothing more to discuss. Athenean (talk) 20:23, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

"Construction already in motion", no, not even in the source you provided. When it really begins, we will write it as such. Sources trace back Athens mosque problem back to the proposal in 1880, then to 1930's and then to 2004 Olympics. Filanca (talk) 20:36, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

The first step in a construction project is approval of the project, in this case directly from the Prime Minister. As such it has already begun. That previous efforts to build a mosque did not come to fruition means nothing. It certainly doesn't mean that a mosque won't be built. You seem to be implying that Greeks are liars. You are also repeating yourself, so I consider this discussion over. Athenean (talk) 20:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

It is not the first time that the Greek state is taking a decision to build a mosque in Athens in this 133-years-old story. I think we can include the last decision to build this mosque in the article, as well as the problem itself. Filanca (talk) 20:57, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

it can be included* Thank you, MarioNovi (talk) 04:55, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Turkophone Christians and Greeks with another form of the Greek Language than Standard modern Greek[edit]

There is no mention of Turkophone Christians. See: Karamanlides, Urum, Gagavuzes

The article Lacks also greek minorities who speek dialect (Tsakonians, Cappadocian Greeks) and so on. Informationskampagne (talk) 13:22, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

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Punjabi link[edit]

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please change ((Punjabi)) to ((Punjabis|Punjabi))

Done. CityOfSilver 15:23, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

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Addition of blatant OR and SYNTH has been reverted[edit]

I have reverted the addition of blatant OR and SYNTH that violates OR, SYNTH, and NPOV. Please propose on talk before re-adding this piece into the article. Dr. K. 17:02, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Oppressed minorities not even mentioned[edit]

Atheists in Greece — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:5802:C500:D4B2:1EC3:8D22:E7F0 (talk) 21:17, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2019[edit]

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Please change the term "Republic of Macedonia" to "Republic of North Macedonia" according to the Prespa agreement. 131.111.202.93 (talk) 23:14, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Done —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:07, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Macedonians (of Slavic origin): Broken References[edit]

In the section about the Macedonian minorities, the references mentioned seem to be invalid. None of these exist/work.

Maybe the whole section should be removed.

anhducwiki7

Wednesday, August 4, 2021